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Razten



Mar 15, 06 - 8:23 PM 		sorry but this has to be said.

im a lil annoyed by Christians as a whole at the moment, and im gonna say why.
firstly the dudes at my school (C.O.E btw) basically assumed me to be satanist because i said i didnt like christians rock music. they also assumed that because i said if 'God' is real it must be either genderless or female, as only these creatures can create life.
i can back this up with saying, that the christian 'God' is above everything, everything includes gender.

also you guys are so hypocritical(sp). some where it says in the bible only 'God' has the right to judge people, yet yoo judge everyone else.
i get called a goth or a chav cause i dress different, talk more slang and have long hair. they assume that im satanist, or some kinda pagan, which im not. (with no offense to either religion).

you judge other peopl and religions the same.
i had my mate slag off jews today, and another poke fun at buddhism, becuase they meditate. i literally turned round and whacked him one the second he poked fun at my other mate who is budhist. im not a violent person, but what he said was outta order.
(he basically said the way my mate lived his life was wrong, and that he as a person should feel ashamed for going against 'God')

also yoo pick at anyone with a different to yoo.
i said "what if 'God' was a man at a typewriter? or a man at a computer?" and i was literally kicked out of the room.

im not sayng all of yoo guys are like this, but come on! give someone a chance to question, cause your supposed to question to learn.
Rachey Rach



Mar 15th, 2006 - 10:28 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

I'd actually agree with a lot of what you've said. there is so much prejudice out there against anyone who is seen as 'different' by the majority.
of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, that is only fair, but they also need to think of the damage they could be doing to other friendships and relationships in expressing views that could be construed as being offensive.
christians may well think that buddhists and jews are wrong, but they have no right to outright dismiss them as being wrong 'people' just because they believe different things. the only way they are going to have any kind of impact on non christians of any kind is by having a relationship with them and talking about things, and just building up trust and confidence in that friendship, so if the non christian does decide to ask about it all, then you can answer honestly and openly without being judged for it either way. IMO anyway!
i guess it has to be tough being in a COE school and not believing. of course you're not necessarily a satanist just because you don't think the same as the christian majority. its always gonna be hard when you're against the masses though. i don't exactly dress conventionally all the time, but im still christian. what i listen to, or wear doesn't have to be the stereotypical hymns and socks n sandals. i happen to like some christian rock, but a lot of it sucks tbh, and i prefer a lot of other rock music really...that doesn't make me a satanist at all!
rock music does have a negative image a lot of the time, but there are some fantastic bands and artists out there that are worth listening to, even if they aren't christian. sometimes its good to have a break from christian music so you can appreciate everything else thats out there, like funk, soul, jazz, blues, swing, pop, punk, rock, even classical!
anyway, ive waffled too much. your school does sound very biased for christianity, which is probably why its so hard. but keep asking questions by all means, learn all the facts, and decide for yourself.
jesusfollower



Mar 16th, 2006 - 4:11 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

yeah there is a lot of prejusdice and i also agree with you

but also people may be jusdging you upon what clothes you wear but we are all different who cares what they think but we must also remeber that somethimes christian are not judging but responing to a question with a different view if you understand me?!?


and i also find a lot of christian corrupt but ill still love them despite thier differences
Razten



Mar 16th, 2006 - 8:14 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

im glad that its not just me who feel this.
alot of my life has been spent trying to actually find something to believe in that fits with what ive experienced in my past.
trust me IMO it isnt about Jesus being Christ. it isnt about there not being a 'God' either. but its just i dunno i cant even begin to contimplate it.
but it's so hard to tell people that i dont believe,
cause you get outcasted from the group, and lets be fair, thats not a greta feeling.
this one time i was made to speak in assembly,
so i said my part and then said this at the end of the reading
"This is according to the gospel of matthew, and for anyone who doesnt believe in Jesus, i think its trying to say we should like, treat everyone fairly"

that didnt go down well, but alot of the non christians said i was the best reader ever.
so its all relative i guess.
but the predjudice against us is unreal.
jesusfollower



Mar 16th, 2006 - 9:32 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

well i dunno mate i have been to a non christian skool and for a christian it horrible

but now i go to a christian 6th form and like you i see the terrible hypocrisy in christians an it is really anoying but maybe they will truely love God and live like it one day

anyway hope you see who jesus really is behind the vail that the skool put on

ill pra for ya!!!
Razten



Mar 19th, 2006 - 10:16 AM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

with everything ive seen, theres isnt a hope in hell of me putting my faith in some false messiah.
jesus was nothing more then a prophet, true an outstandingly good prophet, but a prophet none the less.
the abuse seems to get more physical as i get onto my final years at the school.
the other day my buddhist mate was nearly beat up (by christians) until me and my other mates stopped them.

this of course meant we got blamed, and this of course meant that we got done for making trouble.

also i cant understand what makes you so sure that your faith is the right faith.
what you've experienced could easily be anything, you just think its jesus/God because thats what you've expected to see.
ShadowLands



Mar 19th, 2006 - 2:54 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

I'm sorry, but your last post cannot be correct. Perhaps you have heard of the Trilemma?

Saying that Christ was merely a "good prophet" is an untenable position. He claimed to be God in the flesh, and if he was lying, he was no longer this "good prophet" you describe. He led many others to die for what he knew was a lie.

Or, he could have been crazy, but this cannot be founded on any good evidence.

Finally, he could be who he says he was, that is the Christ.

There are really only three choices, but let's not pretend that he could have been simply a "good prophet".
THEOPTOMIST



Mar 19th, 2006 - 7:42 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

A Warning: not everyone who says they're christian actually are. The bible talks about how there'll be many false prophets etc. trying to decieve us. Also, the only perfect person who has ever exsisted is Jesus. Some of the christians you know will definately make mistakes and should not be expected to always be kind and loving like an angel (though we all strive to be that way).

About God having a gendre...
As far as humans define man and woman (by certain organs) I agree that God is not a man and not a woman. For some reason the bible refers to Him as a "Him" and a "He" - possibly because of his strong and powerful nature that we steriotype males as having, but God definately has very female character traits as well.

As far as how we are sure we are right...
There are very good reasons to believe in a God and very good reasons to believe in the Christian God. There are many good books (like Mere Christianity, Letters from a Skeptic, Simply Christian) that try to explain why Christianity makes sense. Hopefully we Christians can be confident in our belief while being understanding and nonjudgemental at the same time.

Good post ShadowLands. Peace out to everyone from Y.

THEOPTOMIST
Razten



Mar 20th, 2006 - 8:15 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

i dont recall ever reading in the bible jesus actally saying he was the son of 'God'.
and a good prophet makes his points heard by whatever means necessary so even if he did say a lie, it worked and now we base alot of our lives around this man.
and he was a good prophet. he may of been even better had he not been crucified before his time, but as it stands i think that he was simply very good at leading people, and he led them according to what he thought was best for the people.

flase prophets?
or maybe their just prophets that didnt agree with the christian doctrine and were so recorded as satanic?
and if jesus was human, he wasnt perfect, everyone is, from the moment their born, filled with sin. he cannot be human and divine at the same time. also his divinity is down to a vote made by man, so, well you get where im going with that.

the bible refers to 'God' as a man because it was around the era of its writings that men tried to take power off of the women, who at the time were viewed almost as goddess'.
man obviously won this battle, and ever since 'God' has been refered to as male, especially as it ties in so nicely with the trinity.

also no one answered me why a christian 'God' is the right one. just gave me some propaganda made by a church.
Fi



Mar 21st, 2006 - 3:23 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Wow, reading that...woah!

I agree with a lot of what's been said, but disagree strongly with a fair bit as well!!

Jesus did say he was the son of god:

They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am." Luke 22:70

but mostly it was other people reiterating the OT, which said that he was - if you want to see references, check this page out:

http://www.ibs.org/niv/wordsearch.php?word_request=son+of+god&selected_version=niv&match_type=all&whole_word=yes&limit_select=span&limit_NT=yes&start_book=0&end_book=0&limit=25&sortby=bookorder&submit2=Search


Secondly, the C of E school you go to seems really awful to me! I understand what you're feeling because most Christians get persecuted for believing, and here you're getting persecuted for Not believing.

Thirdly, I hate most christian rock music. I like non-christian music, that's probably not good because some of the lyrics are rather questionable, but hey, I like it. I think Xian rock music is quite lame a lot of the time. There are a couple of bands that I don't mind, but i'd always choose to listen to non-xian music rather than xian.

Fourthly: I'll probably get shot for saying this, but I believe God to be either male, or "genderless". We were created in His image, and He is always described in the bible as He, therefore we must assume that he takes some kind of form that is like the male human, IMO anyway.

Fifthly: Yes, We are hypocrites, we're only human, we make mistakes. But Christians should be setting an example to everyone else, so therefore we should be trying hard Not to be hypocritical. Doesn't work I know, but again, no one's perfect (except Jesus ;) )

Sixthly: Slagging off is bad, but come on, everyone slags off everyone else. That's life. You're going to have to cope with people being mean about various aspects of your life and your friends. That doesn't mean to say it's right, and I definitely say it isn't, but fighting it with violence probably isn't the best way to go about it - is that really going to stop your "mates" doing it? Instead, I suggest speaking rationally to him, or if he won't listen, ignoring him and not counting him as a friend.

Seventhly, Everyone is different. You can't say "you pick at anyone who is different to you" that's silly! Everyone's different in different ways, some more than others perhaps, and maybe that's what you're getting at.
Could you explain your point about God being a man at a typewriter more fully? I don't see what you're getting at.

Finally, I am not trying to get at you, but answer your questions, like you asked. I'm not judging you, but from what I've seen, I don't much like your school for being so prejudiced against you, and having such an unchristian attitude towards you!

Take care

Fi
jesusfollower



Mar 21st, 2006 - 5:37 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

dude good reply

but upon the forth point im not gonna attack you but i belive that was perhaps jesus as he was God and we are made in his image but maybe im wrong

and to ratzen
im going to a christain school and i am too also amazed at the hypocrisy in christians you are very right but search around there maybe somereally cool christians out there man who have go thier priorities right and have God as thier number 1

anyway i as a christian try my best not to be a hypocrite and hope to show you dudes through my actions that there really is a God and that i love him!!!!

also have a look at the gospel of John chapter one it is jesus but before reading ask God to reveal him self through the message hope it helps man!!
Razten



Mar 21st, 2006 - 8:35 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

for Fi
on your first point, hands up you got me there. didnt know that was written in luke so fair game.

secondly, i kinda grew up with all this, so thats my reason for being like i am, which may be really annoying to yoo but hey who are you to judge!

thirdly, thank you, thank you, thank you!!! im glad it aint just me being an anti-christ >< (apparently thats what any non-christian person is, according to the kids at school, i mean come on!!!)

im affraid i differ on the forth point.
i cant take the bible as an accurate account, but i will say that i dont think 'God' was originally called 'he'. normally it was like jehovah or yaweh(sp) or something along those lines (king of kings, lord of lords etc). and if he's above everything, gender should be an easy one!

fifth, dont think Jesus was perfect, but i agree no on is, and i shouldnt say this stuff, but it a pretty basic thing. dont dis credit someone of opposite faith.

sixthly, violence is the only way i can talk to these kids, and violence is the only thing im good at. (not a pleasent area i live in lol) in my area its kill or get killed (not literally but yeah) so thats how we sort this stuff out. if i had to, id throw a kid outta a window, but only if i had to, for whatever reason.

i basically meant, by saying 'God' as a man at type writer, that i dont agree with the image of 'God'. so in RE the other day when i suggested this, it wasnt taken well. its a view that not many people like.

thanks for understanding, and giving me some answers,
hope that i dont come across as bad as i think i sound ><

and Jesus follower,
the predjudice is fine.
its the discrimination i hate
Fi



Mar 22nd, 2006 - 2:30 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Yeah, having had time to think about the fourth point, I have decided that I think that God is a He, Jesus was definitely a Man, and Jesus is God, just as he is God's son.

Jesus Was perfect. He came down to earth As a human, taking human form, but in order to do what he came to do, sacrificing himself on the cross for our sin, he had to be blameless himself, or it wouldn't have worked.

The only time he came close to sinning was when he remained in the Temple at Jerusalem (?) when he was 12, and his parents had to go back to find him when they discovered he was not with the group. (by sinning here i mean that he was not quite obeying the commandment "honour your father and mother") but they didn't expressly tell him to come back home with them, they assumed he was with them. sorry, i'm going off on a tangent here, my point was that even at the age of 12 he was aware of who he was, and that he could not sin.

I think there was something else I was going to say, but I can't remember it. Will get back to this soon


oh and jesusfollower, thanks
Rachey Rach



Mar 22nd, 2006 - 6:55 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Wow, i go off galivanting round pretty universities in the cooold north for a couple of days and look what happens!
I think i agree with a lot of whats been said, so theres not too much point reiterating...
i think on the gender thing, i'd go with either male or genderless, male because of jesus being male like fi said, but genderless, because like razten said, He's bigger than that, i don't think it can really apply... and yes, all the original words to describe God were like Jaweh(cant spell?), which weren't gender specific. its modern translations which have put in the 'He' bits i think.im not absolutely sure, so don't quote me as gospel on that.
ugh.i've forgotten whats already been written already, does anyone else not get all the posts in the replying to box? i only get the original msg so cant remember what im replying to!
anyway...will reply if i get some more thoughts...
Rachey Rach



Mar 22nd, 2006 - 6:59 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Ah yeah, fi, the temple thing. it was jerusalem. i didnt think that counted as sinning, because he literally hadnt thought that what he was doing could be construed as wrong, because that was home for him. although, on that argument i guess you could say anyone who is psychopathic and kills someone but doesnt realise its wrong isnt really sinning because they dont realise its bad... hmmm. people with mental disorders get it so hard.sorry, i digress...
maybe he didnt think it was bad, because they knew he was special and from God, and so had a right to be there, and because they hadnt told him they were going, he just didnt know theyd left, and so hadnt really disobeyed?
jesusfollower



Mar 22nd, 2006 - 7:20 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

oooooook by the way jesus was perfect in everyway he never sinned
bambie



Mar 22nd, 2006 - 8:17 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

as do i Jesusfollower. but i do think he was capable of sin! he was fully human aswell. if he wasnt capable of sin he wouldnt be a great example to us because we are in a sinful situation, whats the point of sending us someone incapable of sin and therefore incapable of understanding what we go through and how we feel? when he was tempted in the wildnerness satan probably wouldnt have bothered trying if there wasnt any chance that he could sin. I do strongly believe that he was/ is perfect how ever and that he never did sin. this was the requirement for him to be able to take on our sins at the cross!yeh! hope u had fun at uni's! which ones u visit?
THEOPTOMIST



Mar 22nd, 2006 - 9:25 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Hey

Of course it's up to you to decide what you believe, Razten, and none of us are capable of forcing you to believe something (regardless of how much we wish you would discover how much God loves you). This probably isn't the place to try and give you every good reason to be a christian, but like I said before, there are very good books that talk about this type of thing. Also, do some searching around on the internet. An awsome sight I recommend is

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

Also, be careful about thinking you know something for sure. You have said more-or-less that "Jesus was not perfect", "The bible shouldn't be trusted" and stuff when you don't know for sure. There are many smart people that would disagree with you (I'm not saying you're not smart, just that these people are quite smart as well.).

THEOPTOMIST
Rachey Rach



Mar 22nd, 2006 - 10:32 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

yeah, that kinda puts it better...
i know he never sinned, but getting my head round it all is kinda hard sometimes!
i went to visit durham, loved it so much - im gonna go there hopefully next year after my gap year if i get the grades to do psychology, am so excited!
jesusfollower



Mar 23rd, 2006 - 3:51 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

yeah sorry brambie i agree he was also capable of sin to
Razten



Mar 23rd, 2006 - 8:38 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

wow a dude goes to his dad's for a day and suddenly the site explodes with new posts!!!

where to start ><

ok, right here ya go...

in terms of Jesus being perfect, i dont buy that at all. nothing that has ever existed has been perfect. if Jesus was perfect he would have been able to literally do anything. for example he wouldnt of had to sleep, eat, drink, or even breathe. that would be perfect, a completely self dependent being, at least in my eyes, but Jesus had to rely on his faith in 'God'.
also every human is born with the original sin, and since Jesus is human, so was he. im not saying he later wasnt relieved of this sin, but he was born with it.

also good and bad, holy and evil, right and wrong, whatever the titles you give it is all relative. an example of this would be the samurai (may be a bit off topic but this does prove my point). the samurai believed that killing was right, and whatsmore that taking your own life was a honourable act after being defeated/failing your lord/or by order from your lord. from this we can say that to a whole population killing isnt a sin. just because some dude a couple of thousands of years ago wrote down it is a sin, doesnt mean that we all have to act like sheep and follow it.
basically im saying that killing is right in a persons mind, as long as they can justify it.

the love of 'God'?
i dont like that term, never have and never will. if this 'God' loves us so much to create us, then thats all fine and dandy. however all im ever going to say in return to it is this "Thanks for life, kinda went bad a bit here and there, but on the whole a very good experience". im not going to worship it because it says it loves me. if a girl tells me she loves me, and thats she'll always be with me, (lets take this as literal, for this point at least) i dont worship her, i just remember to tell her thankyou for loving me when i can, and IF i feel the same about her, tell her i love her back.
unfortuantly, people dont share that view, you have to read this, believe this, do this, pray like that. the doctrine is unbelieveable. (of course anything that has made me go through this hell aint worthy of much praise)

also i wouldnt trust anything written or said by anyone ever. mainly because no matter who wrote it, why they did or whatever it's very likely to be opinionated, and thus i dont find the bible an accurate document. if it was accurate then people wouldnt argue about it so much. im not saying that the bible is wrong, but i dont read it without saying yeah ok where else can i find information to back this up? argue that theres this and that, and these books will say this, and this site backs up that. but i still will question it. (of course most of these books/sites are based on the bible anyway)

so, um yeah ^_^
dont hate me for saying this, but i was always taught by my grand-daddy to question everything ^^
Fi



Mar 24th, 2006 - 2:45 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Aah, I came close to giving up on this entirely then. Not because your arguments are too good to explain, but because you're deliberately missing the point in certain areas, and if you do that, you're never going to get your questions answered to your satisfaction.

Yes you're right, nothing that has ever existed has been perfect. From your point of view. However, I beg to differ on that statement, and say that nothing you have Seen with your own eyes is perfect. That's the flaw in humans, we find it extremely difficult not to base our assumptions entirely on what we have seen.

Jesus could do literally everything - but that's not to do with being perfect, that's because he is God and is omnipotent. However, because he came to earth as a human, he chose to restrict himself to our lowly level.

He went 40 days without eating in the desert, he was tempted beyond any of our own capacity by Satan, and yet, because he was perfect, he resisted those temptations. I challenge anyone to be able to do that - I guarantee you'll fail with that amount of pressure. The devil knew who Jesus was, and so tried to make him turn stones into bread. Jesus could have done this, but in order to resist the devil, and to keep from sinning, he didn't.

Ok I think you've got some outdated ideas about original sin. I don't believe every human is born with sin - that would mean that babies that die go straight to hell surely. Do you really think that unless babies are baptised before they die, they will go to hell, having committed no sin on earth? I know people thought that a few centuries ago, but that can't be true surely!

Who in their right mind could think that killing is right? If you take something that isn't yours, even without any teaching from others that it's wrong, you would still feel that it is wrong, it is part of our nature to be aware of right and wrong, what to do and what not to do. It doesn't mean we always do it though. And surely no one could ever justify killing someone in any way, because in the world we live, killing is against the law, and we must abide by those laws for our own safety.

I am not sure what you're saying about the loving God business, it's not the same as the loving the girl example you did - that would be like loving the earth, or loving your life. Sometimes life "loves you" and you'll love life; sometimes life hates you and you'll hate it back, but loving God is nothing to do with that. God Created you! He deserves all the worship we can give him and some. We are ungrateful little brats who never say thank you for being made. How often have you said thank you to your parents for bringing you up, looking after you, making sure you learn, paying for your food, your clothes, your education perhaps, yes you may say thanks for individual things they do for you now, but that doesn't count! Same with God.

And God didn't make you go through "this hell" - he leaves us to our own devices pretty much, except on some occasions when we ask him to step in. He wants us to live our own lives, (free will etc.) not be an all-powerful dictator ruling over an oppressed world.

So you don't believe anything you read? How on earth have you got through school? You mean to say, you look at newspapers saying that, i duno, the twin towers got knocked down by terrorists..wait that's a bad example, because that wasn't true anyway IMO. Let's try another one, ok when the Pope died. You didn't believe that? Even with the circumstantial evidence...ahh heck. This is why it seems to be fighting a losing battle here talking to you, your comments are sometimes so extraordinary!

Lastly, I'd like to say that it's not a bad thing to question everything, but you're going to have to accept that you're going to die feeling very unfulfilled if you want all the answers! No one has Ever found all the answers to their questions satisfactorily!
THEOPTOMIST



Mar 24th, 2006 - 5:39 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

You said your grand-dad or whoever told you to test everything - I think that's great. Cause yunno where your grand-dad got that from? The bible! Paul tells us to test everything.

You also said that you don't believe anything you read. Well, I guess a lot of this is pointless then isn't it, if you're never going to believe it anyways. That's up to you though, I have no gripe about that.

Just make sure everything you believe isn't based on a steriotype or your experiance in life: that's my advice. Try not to automatically assume every christian is jugdemental. Try not to assume everything written by a christian is false (after all, the truth is the truth, no matter who says it with what bias). Try not to assume that Jesus couldn't be a perfect God and a human at the same time.

One last thing...you seem to be excepting some christian beliefs - like sin for example. Can you please explain a bit what you DO believe, as opposed to what you DON'T believe? Do you believe in God? If not, why do you believe in sin?

Hope you can work things out.

THEOPTOMIST
Corinne



Mar 24th, 2006 - 6:35 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Hey. sry u had bad experiances, but i dont know a single christian like that. An im feelin a lil mad at um or givin us a bad rep! i think u sound cool, not a satanist at all. :-)wa music u in2 then. i meen, my favorote band is system of a down! an they jews. lol. an i luv ur coment about...'God' was a man at a typewriter?' lol. luv it. good idea keehee. maybe da universe is Jesuses balloon. lol. well im so sry that u had them experiances, not all christians r bad as u say... so if u ever do wana ask questions lil cool dude, corinne xxx
Razten



Mar 25th, 2006 - 12:22 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

ok right lets start with Fi;

ill be satisfied when im fully aware of how much infulence this 'God' has. im not gonna depend on anything except myself. i dont believe that i need any higher power to do anything for me, cause i'd rather do it by myself and screw up then be able to blame something else for it.

i dont base anything on what ive seen. the eyes are easily fooled, and besides mine aint to great anyway. i base things off what my gut instinct tells me, as thats alot more trust worthy then any other sense humans have.

the idea of this sin, comes from numerous sources, my school, the baptist church in my local town, even this random dude at this christian concert i was dragged to by a friend. its not so outdated now is it?

40 days? been done already by man. not an amazing feat really. and everyone who did that wasnt perfect. if Jesus was limited, he clearly wasnt perfect.

who in their right mind would kill? anyone of us. we actually have the wrong mind. this concept of right and wrong is firstly relative to the person and secondly a load of bull. our natural insticts tell us that you do whatever to stay alive, right and wrong is a product of the human indoctrination that every human goes through.
and if you think abiding laws mean your safe, then you must live in a pretty happy place. the laws are only their to control people. if someone was about to rape someone else, wouldnt you raise a weapon and stop it? thats against the law. the police break more laws then the criminals they catch anyway. never heard of police brutality? happens where im at almost every night. they once broke a dude's arm cause he refused to move away from a police car, and the police forced him out of the way.

'God' didnt create me, my parents did. and i say thanks in my own way everyday, whether that be asking them how their day was with a real interest, or making them a cup of tea in the morning. why does he deserve worship? cause he mades us? i can make a plant grow, do i want that plant to worship me?

this hell is exactly what ive said. a crappy existence, made worse by people trying to control you.

you missed my point. things that i read at school, even if i dont believe in it, ill remember and be able to reproduce that information. things like newspapers are just a waste of paper, always full of some new conspiracy or disater.
things that can be given conclusive proof, that doesnt lead to a load more questions, i can quite happily say yeah ok. things like whether Jesus was the son of 'God' that opens up about a zillion more questions, i cannot believe in.

happy with that answer?

next THEOPTOMIST,

erm no its not from the bible, its from my family motto. my grand-daddy has our flag and logo from centuries ago, and we're from a pagan family.

i dont believe EVERYTHING i read, but some things that make sense to me as a person i will decide whether or not to believe in.

and why shouldnt i base my beliefs on me?
i dunno who said it, but someone once said "the only thing a man can trust is himself" or at least something like that. i stick to that philosophy. ill respect others beliefs, and i dont assume every christian is judgemental, but no doubt everyone on this site has already made an opinion on me.
and i dont assume that Jesus could never be perfect. i know he wasnt, in the same way you believe he was.

i believe that there's an force out their, nothing like a 'God' but something with that type of power. like a 5th dimensional being. i also dont believe that sin is a clear line, and that it differs from person to person. for example if someone was to intentionally hurt someone for the fun of it, i'd view that as wrong, which is like a type of sin. i dont like the word sin, it covers too much ground.

corrine;
i only ever mentioned the christians at my school. never anyone else. i like a variety of music, SOAD, RHCP, nirvana, Thrice, Disturbed, Tupac, Eminem, people who are real to themselves and to others.

thanks for the comments ^_^
Razten
Fi



Mar 25th, 2006 - 3:40 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

"happy with that answer?"

No. Not at all.
I've been writing and deleting for about 15 minutes now, I don't really know what to say, I give up basically. You seem determined not to listen to us or accept what we are saying (you'll protest that I'm sure) so I'm withdrawing from this argument for now.

Yes, that's what it is, you're saying stuff, and we're disputing it, and you're throwing it back in our faces again.

Grr, I'm letting my temper get the better of me again, but it frustrates me how none of us seem to be able to change your views at all.

So, to sum up, sorry, I'm not trying to get at you particularly, just your way of putting across your arguments and stuff. I'm probably being really unchristiany saying this, but I'm just annoyed.

Sorry again. But I'm not rewriting this Again!!
jesusfollower



Mar 25th, 2006 - 4:10 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

ratzen
dude i respect your opinions dont believe what you say

but i tell you what if i lived for my self i would have seriously screwed up by now
i mean before i was a proper christian ( i mean proper before when i was younger i went to church but i didnt really know God)
anyway i was a skool and used to hang round with well first of all who i saw was the koool crowd then made friend with the druggy crew ( neva took any drugs though whoooo)

and i kinda thought hang on a sec what the hell am i doin so i got it sorted out saw the love of God it was all because of God that i never went down that road or learnt the hard way

i was never really a baad kid but it could have been that was soo basically i cant live or my slef for i am foolish and just a man but each day i learn more about God and become wises therefore i dont stumble when the enemy attacks and the whole living for your self all though its kooooool is not all it seems you get screwed over whether your rich or pooor because we as mere humans and are not all that wise

but also this was all through the love of God it is soo great if i could show you some how or if you could see a miricale that science can not prove and that is obviously God would you belive?!?

and please dont try and slag off what i wrote its just annoying life fi said but i understand you dont really respect christianity but hey maybe one day you will
bambie



Mar 25th, 2006 - 11:00 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

raz mate, im wondering if u wanna find answers to ur questions or if u just wanna ask more questions or make ur existing ones more complex. as far as i can see looking over the convo here so far, everything uv brought up and asked has been answered and discussed at quite a detailed level, thats great. but i dont feel that u feel any closer to an answer urself. am i right in thinking that? i believe that im never going to feel totaly satisfied in life and find all the answers until i get to heaven cos thats when our minds will be opened and we'll see things the way God does. but im not going to dismiss everything i hear on earth, im goin to weigh it up and ponder on it (and pray about it) Christianity is a relationship, but its one with a difference, one with God. now God cant be seen so therefore there has to be a level of faith involved. thats where alot of people get turned off and skeptical, it all sounds pretty reasonable until u get to "o so u need faith to believe it all". God understands that, thats why he's revealed himself through: nature, the Bible, Jesus himself coming down, his work through the Holy Spirit in peoples lives, through miricles and answered prayers, through fulfilled prophecy and personal testimony. i pray for u mate, i pray that u will see God at work through the small things in life.
jesusfollower



Mar 26th, 2006 - 10:58 AM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

actually your post just reminded me of something i read last night
which was fisrt of all at the end of 1 chronicles david says to solomon if you seek you shal find
then i read another book called the case for faith very good book and in itthe guy was saying there is not enough evidence to say yup there is definately a God but there is also not enough evidence to prove here aint a God but theres just enough of God for you to seek and find

also not in the book but on a personal note there is an increasing large amount of evidence nower days proving God and matters in the bible
THEOPTOMIST



Mar 26th, 2006 - 9:35 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Please understand what I'm about to say is not a judgement, but a speculation:

You've said that you trust yourself and do things yourself. You've also said that your life is hell. A coincidence? I suggest God can change that.

THEOPTOMIST
Rachey Rach



Mar 27th, 2006 - 6:21 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Ooooh The Case for Faith. good read! the other ones in the series are also very interesting, A Case for a Creator and Case for Christ (i think) by Lee Strobel. sold by all good christian bookshops, especially the one i work in!
Razten



Mar 27th, 2006 - 7:45 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

seeing as this is the only way i can address everything said ill do it in a smilar style as before, individual responses.

fi;
seems as a general rule of humanity, we arent meant to be happy.if your unhappy wiht the way i argue, then i suggest that you learn to argue more effectivly. i might not be the cleverest person ever, but i can pick apart arguements and single out any problems i have with it. oh and not being afraid to speak my mind helps. lol
also sorry if you get angry, but hey thats the way it works, no doubt that someone else gets to you as much as i seem to.

(oh and as i general thing. i wont believe anything you say, purely because i dont agree with you, and the way you say it makes even my hair bored >
Corinne



Mar 27th, 2006 - 9:01 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

no ofence mate but if its makin u bord, well, u lookin at it all in the wrong way, i think wa these ppl gota say is interestin an u can learn alot. As for ur reply to Fi, i thaught the point of this sight is 2 discus, not to argue. coz >
baby blue.



Mar 27th, 2006 - 9:11 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

raz, is that your name, you really ought to learn to spell and use correct grammer so your arguements just might interest adult type people who are fairly chilled rather than the much too polite people you are obviously trying to wind up
Razten



Mar 28th, 2006 - 7:11 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

most of my last post seems to of been deleted ><
i dunno why.
however my basic points were;
- most of the time, the people who talk to me about 'God' i can see right through. and they say the same type of stuff. so i really dont bother listening.

-my life is mine to live, and though i come from a rough back ground, im a true thug, and im working my way up to the top.

- the more questions i get answered, the more seem to come into my mind. i get left thinking that the contradictions make the whole idea completely fictious(sp)

- i dont believe in heaven, so i cant get the answers in the end like that.

- most of the people who have tried to get me into this stuff have given up on me, as have all of you. i ask the sensitive questions and suddenly im outcasted. you all think im some big shot who gets kicks going agaisnt 'God', when in reality, im just trying to work out what its all about. so yeah you can f*** off with your judgements on me, cause i really dont need them.

-the info given here, ive heard before, and its the same answers, the same "but that would never happen" type of thing. ive yet to see anyone say something to me (except maybe the thing about Jesus in Luke) that i hadnt heard of before (oh minus the books that i'd never read anyway)

- if im looking at it in the wrong way, what is the right way?

- oh and baby blue, im doing my best, but im used to typing more like "so wht up wit u 2?" basically literacy skills arent amazing when im trying to use MSN as well as do this.

- and if i was trying to wind people up, i wouldnt keep asking questions, cause that wouldnt make people upset. basically get off your high horse blue, and dont think that cause im a lil younger i know less then you.

so i guess you all got a problem with me then?
wonder why >
baby blue.



Mar 28th, 2006 - 7:50 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

sry raz. i didnt mean it dat way! *hug* when i said wrong way i meant, like, um... well kinda 1 sided, but so am i, an i apolagise. i gan c how its so hard 4 u to not understand our god, an religion. coz id find it hard 2 *** 2 terms wid this kinda discusion wid muslims if ya know wa i mean. i am truly sry. will u forgive me? im not juging u. u seem kinda cool, i meant id like a discusion not arguments. so les all av a big hug an start again lol! raz, i mean it, i dont think less o u at all, an so long as u gi questions, id veva giv up on u dude ok. *hippy hug* lol!
luv coz
coz



Mar 28th, 2006 - 7:52 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

ps. raz,
sry 4 my mate baby blue, shes a stress. i said she could use my pc an reply 2 u, sry! lol
jesusfollower



Mar 29th, 2006 - 12:12 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

hey dude i was just wondering just ask us the questions you have about christianity and ask us

we may not be all that great but im sure we can help
Lance



Mar 30th, 2006 - 2:26 AM 		Have it from the horses mouth

Maybe a few of you think you are right in what you have said, but remember that it is God who makes the decisions and it is no good arguing ignorance with him. God has given us his word and that is what our performance will be judged by at the end of the day, not what somebody else did.

Better get out the looking glass. It is still true that when we point a finger at somebody else, we point three fingers back at ourselves.
Razten



Mar 30th, 2006 - 7:27 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

of course im on sided, have you not read the rest of this thread?!
and its ok *hugs back*
i just get so p***ed off when people seem to look down at me. im just as good as them, if not better, cause i know how bad things can get, and i wont give, even a little bit until i reach my goals.
i can understand most of this 'God' thing, except certain area's, like how do you know 'God's' real, and how do you know Jesus was it's son.

to be honest i find most muslim things one hell of alot easier to understand, but that might be because i only know a few muslims, and dont believe the majority of the things said on the news.

forgivenss? lifes too short for hate, so yeah your forgiven. id like a discussion, but i seem to be completely outnumbered whenever i make a point.
and your the first person to say that you wont give up on me. most others do.

and dont worry bout anything coz.
ill think of some questions (or look through my pad of em when i tried reading parts of the bible. i read about four pages of genesis and had about half an A4 page of points >
Razten



Mar 30th, 2006 - 7:28 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

let me try that again

of course im on sided, have you not read the rest of this thread?!
and its ok *hugs back*
i just get so p***ed off when people seem to look down at me. im just as good as them, if not better, cause i know how bad things can get, and i wont give, even a little bit until i reach my goals.
i can understand most of this 'God' thing, except certain area's, like how do you know 'God's' real, and how do you know Jesus was it's son.

to be honest i find most muslim things one hell of alot easier to understand, but that might be because i only know a few muslims, and dont believe the majority of the things said on the news.

forgivenss? lifes too short for hate, so yeah your forgiven. id like a discussion, but i seem to be completely outnumbered whenever i make a point.
and your the first person to say that you wont give up on me. most others do.

and dont worry bout anything coz.
ill think of some questions (or look through my pad of em when i tried reading parts of the bible. i read about four pages of genesis and had about half an A4 page of points >
Razten



Mar 30th, 2006 - 7:29 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

Lance;
if 'God' makes the decisions why did he give us freewill?
what'd be the point?
and our ideas dont actually contradict each other.
im saying that i'll do everything for myself, and not want any help from a sort of 'God'. your saying that after we die we get judged on what we've done. if ive lead a good life hen what does it matter?
and i dont point at any one.
though i do use other hand signals to show my feelings.
lol, i point to the floor then.
THEOPTOMIST



Mar 30th, 2006 - 11:20 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

That was a good idea Jesusfollower had, Razten, ask us some questions you have. If we keep telling you things, we don't know if you care about what we're saying or not... but if you ask questions - that'll be better. Only if you want to, that is, only if you think it'll help.

THEOPTOMIST
Razten



Apr 3rd, 2006 - 7:30 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

yeah i got some,
well acutally i have a note-pad full of them ><
you'd be suprised by what one can find wrong in the bible (when i say wrong i mena things that dont make sense to an individual, not wrong as in its content is incorrect.
1) why is it that the people in Genesis (as in Abraham and all that lot) (man i really should read that again, that sounds so bad >
Razten



Apr 3rd, 2006 - 8:05 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

sorry (one day i will whack this computer one grrr!!!)
but in Genesis the people live until their like 180 or something. i have a big problem with that. we only live until we're like 70-90 but they lived longer and without as advanced medicine as we have today.
coz



Apr 5th, 2006 - 7:29 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

u know raz. thats a reel gud point. i thaught the same thing 2! um... well, maybe because the world was so clean and fresh. also they prob had natural remodies that worked with ya body or sumet? 2 be honest i aint got a clue! lol. tell u wat, ill ask around, c wa i can find, maybe sumone will know. wa do u guys think?
jesusfollower



Apr 6th, 2006 - 10:51 AM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

well ok from what i know this is why
cant gauranty but its based upon God and stuff

well when God made the world we were made in his image so we were perfect
but then we sined and were kicked out of the garden of eden but we were still pretty close to perfect

then there was the flood and from what ive heard there was a fremement all around the world and when there flod happened that fermement fell to the ground.
This fermement kept the world nice and warm perfect Conditions
but now this has gone we are slowly dieing quicker

i will try and get you more information dude ill post agin if i find any!!
jesusfollower



Apr 6th, 2006 - 11:14 AM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

yup i have been looking some stuff up for ya

and found this just coppy it into your browser
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i4/years.asp

enjoy
coz



Apr 6th, 2006 - 5:11 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

gud 1 Jesusfollower!
Razten



Apr 9th, 2006 - 7:16 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

well i dont buy that at all.
theres not enough water to flood the land, as much as described in the bible, on the planet.
and this thing about being fresh and clean, wouldnt that happen at baptism or comfirmation or some other thing like that?
people always talk about being refreshed after doing that.
new guy



Apr 9th, 2006 - 8:42 PM 		Re: sorry but this has to be said.

i meant clean an freash, like no polution. but i think thats a rubish idea,. i think that wedsite got da answers lol


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