Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 13, 08 - 8:14 AM

Flat Out

I read something in one of the Laurie Smith books last year that really stuck in my mind - it's obvious when you think about it, but I'd never really thought about it before. It was especially relevant in Sunday's conditions...

If you are not fully hiking or flat-out trapezing, then you are probably not going as fast as you could be.

I had previously thought of hiking/trapezing as something we HAVE to do on strong wind days, whereas the truth is that it's something that we NEED to do regardless of the wind conditions if we want to go fast. It's important to keep the boat flat, but if you aren't having to hang out of the side of the boat to do it, try...

1) Sheeting in - the obvious one!
2) If your kicker isn't on, try pulling some on
3) If your kicker is on hard, let some off
4) If you have mast chocs, a strut or lowers, use them!
5) Let your outhaul off a bit
6) Try bearing away - don't pinch
7) Try Sheeting out little - tight can be slow

Try these in turn and see if you start to heel - if you do - great: start hiking. If not, try something else.

It's also important not to get yourself out on the wire by oversheeting on reaches, which will be very slow. ALWAYS give sail-setting priority over hiking/trapezing.

Here endeth etc...

Any thoughts???

Mike

IP: 83.67.105.75

May 13th, 2008 - 12:04 PM

Re: Flat Out

Well you were certainly doing something right on Sunday Peter - excellent result

Makes a lot of sense.

Neil

IP: 194.176.105.42

May 13th, 2008 - 12:12 PM

Re: Flat Out

Is sailing an art or a science?

One of the reasons I struggle with sailing technique is that I often seek a fixed logical rule to follow in defined situations i.e tighten kicker when x happens - when in fact no absolute rule applies as there are always exceptions.

Peter sums it up quite neatly - if its not working tighten or loosen the kicker, or pull in or let out the sheet. Surely this proves sailing is an art not a science...the Baltic (art gallery!) here I come.

Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 13th, 2008 - 1:32 PM

Re: Flat Out

Thanks Mike - I'm really chuffed with the result. I think Ruth is getting a bored of me chanting "I am the champion" around the house now though.

Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 13th, 2008 - 3:24 PM

Re: Flat Out

Neil - being a total nerd, I think sailing is a complex science, but to quote one of my fellow nerds from university "your dog doesn't need a PHD in hyperbolic trigonometry to catch a ball, it just remembers what happened last time you threw it"

Viola

IP: 217.144.152.162

May 13th, 2008 - 4:03 PM

Re: Flat Out

Peter,
Again you have shown the nack of putting quite complex things into simple words, and last weekend showed how well you are putting your thoughts into actions. Keep up the good work!

Neil,
There are lots of little things that have to be right to get the best speed, and remembering the list of them all is hard at the begining.

Don't worry about starting with a few and not adding more until those are automatic. Or add one more thing to be aware of each weekend.

NEVER stop asking and talking and thinking!

Neil

IP: 92.233.237.49

May 13th, 2008 - 6:21 PM

Re: Flat Out

Can't agree more Peter. As I said to my kids as I launched them onto Kielder Water on Sunday for their first solo sail (crying and screaming and tied to the mast) - "you've done the theory now you just have to learn to sail!"

Cheers
Neil

PS There may slight inaccuracies in the telling of this tale.

Tony

IP: 81.137.253.207

May 14th, 2008 - 8:37 AM

Re: Flat Out

Viola, how right you are....when we do remember to ease (or tighten)the kicker, we have forgotten to adjust the outhaul, or the rig tension or the cunningham or something else...I am sure it all comes with practice...but that is part of the fun.

Tony

Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 14th, 2008 - 9:18 AM

Re: Flat Out

On the supernova training day we were told to fit tell-tells and use them! Almost as soon as I'd fitted them, the effect of the various controls became blatantly obvious. I only have to remember one thing now... to keep them little fellas flying!

As always, I'm happy to demonstrate either on the shore, or even on the water with anyone up to about 12st with short legs ;)

Richard

IP: 80.254.146.4

May 14th, 2008 - 10:23 AM

Re: Flat Out

Peter

My legs are quite short and 12 stone each. Do I qualify?

Neil

IP: 194.176.105.42

May 14th, 2008 - 12:24 PM

Re: Flat Out

Peter

I think your advice on telltales is excellent - I will be definitely investing in a judicious number of them.

Richard

IP: 80.254.146.4

May 14th, 2008 - 12:27 PM

Re: Flat Out

Can anyone provide the correct sequence of things to do when jybing with a symmetric spinnaker.

We tried this a coupe of times on Sunday with the result being similar to what happens when Billy Smart puts up his big top!

On reflection perhaps Mr Smart may be interested in our combined trapeze/juggling/clown performance!!!!

Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 14th, 2008 - 1:38 PM

Re: Flat Out

I think it goes...

1) smack head on boom
2) use some words your granny wouln't understand
3) get string wrapped around your ankles
4) capsize

Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 14th, 2008 - 1:41 PM

Re: Flat Out

If you go to the wanderer website and click on "technical", the first article "spinnaker handling" has step-by-step guides for hoisting, dropping and gybing,

PH

Viola

IP: 83.67.105.75

May 14th, 2008 - 2:15 PM

Re: Flat Out

What we do is:
1. Helm puts tiller between knees and takes the spinnaker guy and sheet,
2. Crew adjusts the spinnaker barber haulers
3. Helm institutes the gybe with his knees, attempting to fly thekite through the gybe, while the crew helps the boom over from the kicker.
4. Helm continues to try to fly the kite while the crew detaches pole from mast, attaches to new guy, detaches from new sheet and attaches to the mast
5. Hand over of spinnaker controls and off on new leg.

Not all helms do this but it was what Jim Saltenstall advised when he came for a training day many years ago, and it works well for us.
Not so easy when the 2nd leg is a closer reach, then fat helms win because they can sit on the side and keep it flat and closer to the wind, we have to remain broad until crew all tidied up.

Kirstie

IP: 89.241.126.195

May 14th, 2008 - 2:55 PM

Re: Flat Out

I am sure that the expression "crew all tidied up" means something very different in our boat!!!!

Richard

IP: 80.254.146.4

May 14th, 2008 - 4:17 PM

Re: Flat Out

Thanks Peter - very informative

Viola

We certainly have the fat helm covered but I'm not quite so confident with the rest of the technique you describe!!!!!

Viola

IP: 83.67.105.75

May 14th, 2008 - 4:56 PM

Re: Flat Out

Richard, we will help you out with this next Sunday. What is really needed is practice - so we had better lobby the OOD for 'M' courses - lots of gybing!

I am training Juniors on Sat but could have 15 mins free at lunchtime

Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 14th, 2008 - 4:58 PM

Re: Flat Out

I must say that although I loved the wanderer in many ways, handling the symmetric kite wasn't one of them. If we ever get a double-hander again, I think it will be one of those easy-to-sail asymmetric cruisers (Laser stratos, 49er etc.)

Peter.

Viola

IP: 83.67.105.75

May 14th, 2008 - 5:24 PM

Re: Flat Out

Peter, what nonsense! A symetric spinnaker is very little bother - it just requires familiarity

Ok, it takes longer to get familiar with but you can do more with it once it is flying, you are not stuck with that narrow downwind area - you can have from screaming reaches to surfing dead downwinds.

Julie

IP: 81.152.114.135

May 14th, 2008 - 6:26 PM

Re: Flat Out

Richard, If your helm is available you could join in the 2nd day of the Sailing with Spinnakers course this Saturday.

Contact Stephen if you are interested.

Richard

IP: 80.254.146.4

May 14th, 2008 - 6:57 PM

Re: Flat Out

Julie

I wish I could but I should probably do some work and my better half would probably create a substantial crater if I suggest both days at the club this weekend.

What ever happened to love, honour and obey???

Paul

IP: 152.135.235.188

May 14th, 2008 - 9:12 PM

Re: Flat Out

The two key essentials to a good gybe are:

1) Make sure the boat is moving at it's maximum speed, before initiating a gybe.

2) Ensure the boat is flat or has a small amount of windward heel.

Peter is more than welcome to come & demonstrate gybing our 40sqm kite from the wire. We'll happily see if we can manage a Wanderer!

Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 15th, 2008 - 8:18 AM

Re: Flat Out

Those things just gybe themselves don't they Paul

What Paul says about fast and flat are very true in stronger winds. Also...

3) Timing...throw the boom over BEFORE you leave the straight downwind position.

It should be possible to sail on a dead run in strong winds and throw the boom from side to side without capsizing. Put some centreboard down in stronger winds to stop the boat screwing up when the boom lands on the new side. Pulling some kicker on makes the boom much easier to throw.

Note the difference from the RYA technique:

RYA: Centreboard up, kicker off, Gybe by changing course and waiting for the boom to decapitate you.

DRY: Centreboard down, kicker on, Throw the boom when dead downwind. change course afterwards.

This works well in single handers and asymmetrics, and I would strongly recommend that anyone scared of gybe-capsizes (as I was before the SN training day) gives it a go.

I don't know what the Opreys do???

Neil

IP: 92.233.237.49

May 15th, 2008 - 8:26 AM

Re: Flat Out

Peter

Do you sheet in the mainsail slightly as well to stop the boom ending up in the water after the gybe?

Neil

Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 15th, 2008 - 8:46 AM

Re: Flat Out

Yes... the technique the supernova god showed us (which should work for all centre-mainsheet single handers) was to pick up the mainsheet at the stopper knot (that you put in to stop the boom hitting the shrouds), put the knot between your thumb and 1st finger then raise you hand up to the kicker - this sheets in about 1m. Still holding the knot tight, wrap your spare fingers around the kicker and fling!

Lower your hand again to sheet back out, then just before the boom lands on the other side give the sheet a short pull to pop the battens and to decelerate the boom.

Peter

IP: 86.149.39.161

May 15th, 2008 - 8:50 AM

Re: Flat Out

Actually, it's not the kicker I fling, it's the mainsheet where it leaves the boom - I think Steve has a bit of rope hanging at this point soley for doing the fling - he calls it a gybing strop.

Tony

IP: 81.137.253.207

May 15th, 2008 - 12:25 PM

Re: Flat Out

My crew has one of those...every time I want to Gybe...he goes into a strop!

Mike

IP: 83.67.105.75

May 15th, 2008 - 2:45 PM

Re: Flat Out

A well flown conventional spinnaker is a thing of beauty. It's well worth the effort taken to master it.

That inevitably involves spending a certain amount of time trawling it underneath the boat, but persevere!

As Viola says, we'd be glad to help, crew-swapping or whatever.

Paul

IP: 152.135.235.188

May 15th, 2008 - 5:03 PM

Re: Flat Out

Flat or Windward Heel is key for all wind conditions.

In very light winds you may want some slight leeward heel while running or reaching, so that sail shape is preserved & flow is engaged. But during the gybe you need the CoE of the sail to be perpendicular or to windward, so that the sail is neutral or drives the hull through the gybe.

If you have any leeward heel when you gybe then the rudder will start to stall & act as a handbrake.

The faster you move relative to the windspeed, the the easier & safer the gybe will be. Problem normally occur when the preparation for the gybe is poor & the boat starts to slow.

Mike C

IP: 81.131.17.119

May 15th, 2008 - 7:54 PM

Re: Flat Out

There should be a Flying Fifteen Video in the focsle with a few hints on sailing by Steve Goacher. You're welcome to borrow it and apply the bits that are useful to your boat/technique.

Author	Comment
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 13, 08 - 8:14 AM	Flat Out I read something in one of the Laurie Smith books last year that really stuck in my mind - it's obvious when you think about it, but I'd never really thought about it before. It was especially relevant in Sunday's conditions... If you are not fully hiking or flat-out trapezing, then you are probably not going as fast as you could be. I had previously thought of hiking/trapezing as something we HAVE to do on strong wind days, whereas the truth is that it's something that we NEED to do regardless of the wind conditions if we want to go fast. It's important to keep the boat flat, but if you aren't having to hang out of the side of the boat to do it, try... 1) Sheeting in - the obvious one! 2) If your kicker isn't on, try pulling some on 3) If your kicker is on hard, let some off 4) If you have mast chocs, a strut or lowers, use them! 5) Let your outhaul off a bit 6) Try bearing away - don't pinch 7) Try Sheeting out little - tight can be slow Try these in turn and see if you start to heel - if you do - great: start hiking. If not, try something else. It's also important not to get yourself out on the wire by oversheeting on reaches, which will be very slow. ALWAYS give sail-setting priority over hiking/trapezing. Here endeth etc... Any thoughts???
Mike IP: 83.67.105.75 May 13th, 2008 - 12:04 PM	Re: Flat Out Well you were certainly doing something right on Sunday Peter - excellent result Makes a lot of sense. E-mail: mhs@iqx.co.uk
Neil IP: 194.176.105.42 May 13th, 2008 - 12:12 PM	Re: Flat Out Is sailing an art or a science? One of the reasons I struggle with sailing technique is that I often seek a fixed logical rule to follow in defined situations i.e tighten kicker when x happens - when in fact no absolute rule applies as there are always exceptions. Peter sums it up quite neatly - if its not working tighten or loosen the kicker, or pull in or let out the sheet. Surely this proves sailing is an art not a science...the Baltic (art gallery!) here I come.
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 13th, 2008 - 1:32 PM	Re: Flat Out Thanks Mike - I'm really chuffed with the result. I think Ruth is getting a bored of me chanting "I am the champion" around the house now though.
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 13th, 2008 - 3:24 PM	Re: Flat Out Neil - being a total nerd, I think sailing is a complex science, but to quote one of my fellow nerds from university "your dog doesn't need a PHD in hyperbolic trigonometry to catch a ball, it just remembers what happened last time you threw it"
Viola IP: 217.144.152.162 May 13th, 2008 - 4:03 PM	Re: Flat Out Peter, Again you have shown the nack of putting quite complex things into simple words, and last weekend showed how well you are putting your thoughts into actions. Keep up the good work! Neil, There are lots of little things that have to be right to get the best speed, and remembering the list of them all is hard at the begining. Don't worry about starting with a few and not adding more until those are automatic. Or add one more thing to be aware of each weekend. NEVER stop asking and talking and thinking!
Neil IP: 92.233.237.49 May 13th, 2008 - 6:21 PM	Re: Flat Out Can't agree more Peter. As I said to my kids as I launched them onto Kielder Water on Sunday for their first solo sail (crying and screaming and tied to the mast) - "you've done the theory now you just have to learn to sail!" Cheers Neil PS There may slight inaccuracies in the telling of this tale.
Tony IP: 81.137.253.207 May 14th, 2008 - 8:37 AM	Re: Flat Out Viola, how right you are....when we do remember to ease (or tighten)the kicker, we have forgotten to adjust the outhaul, or the rig tension or the cunningham or something else...I am sure it all comes with practice...but that is part of the fun. Tony E-mail: tonyblenkinsop@blueyonder.co.uk
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 14th, 2008 - 9:18 AM	Re: Flat Out On the supernova training day we were told to fit tell-tells and use them! Almost as soon as I'd fitted them, the effect of the various controls became blatantly obvious. I only have to remember one thing now... to keep them little fellas flying! As always, I'm happy to demonstrate either on the shore, or even on the water with anyone up to about 12st with short legs ;)
Richard IP: 80.254.146.4 May 14th, 2008 - 10:23 AM	Re: Flat Out Peter My legs are quite short and 12 stone each. Do I qualify?
Neil IP: 194.176.105.42 May 14th, 2008 - 12:24 PM	Re: Flat Out Peter I think your advice on telltales is excellent - I will be definitely investing in a judicious number of them.
Richard IP: 80.254.146.4 May 14th, 2008 - 12:27 PM	Re: Flat Out Can anyone provide the correct sequence of things to do when jybing with a symmetric spinnaker. We tried this a coupe of times on Sunday with the result being similar to what happens when Billy Smart puts up his big top! On reflection perhaps Mr Smart may be interested in our combined trapeze/juggling/clown performance!!!!
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 14th, 2008 - 1:38 PM	Re: Flat Out I think it goes... 1) smack head on boom 2) use some words your granny wouln't understand 3) get string wrapped around your ankles 4) capsize
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 14th, 2008 - 1:41 PM	Re: Flat Out If you go to the wanderer website and click on "technical", the first article "spinnaker handling" has step-by-step guides for hoisting, dropping and gybing, PH
Viola IP: 83.67.105.75 May 14th, 2008 - 2:15 PM	Re: Flat Out What we do is: 1. Helm puts tiller between knees and takes the spinnaker guy and sheet, 2. Crew adjusts the spinnaker barber haulers 3. Helm institutes the gybe with his knees, attempting to fly thekite through the gybe, while the crew helps the boom over from the kicker. 4. Helm continues to try to fly the kite while the crew detaches pole from mast, attaches to new guy, detaches from new sheet and attaches to the mast 5. Hand over of spinnaker controls and off on new leg. Not all helms do this but it was what Jim Saltenstall advised when he came for a training day many years ago, and it works well for us. Not so easy when the 2nd leg is a closer reach, then fat helms win because they can sit on the side and keep it flat and closer to the wind, we have to remain broad until crew all tidied up.
Kirstie IP: 89.241.126.195 May 14th, 2008 - 2:55 PM	Re: Flat Out I am sure that the expression "crew all tidied up" means something very different in our boat!!!!
Richard IP: 80.254.146.4 May 14th, 2008 - 4:17 PM	Re: Flat Out Thanks Peter - very informative Viola We certainly have the fat helm covered but I'm not quite so confident with the rest of the technique you describe!!!!!
Viola IP: 83.67.105.75 May 14th, 2008 - 4:56 PM	Re: Flat Out Richard, we will help you out with this next Sunday. What is really needed is practice - so we had better lobby the OOD for 'M' courses - lots of gybing! I am training Juniors on Sat but could have 15 mins free at lunchtime
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 14th, 2008 - 4:58 PM	Re: Flat Out I must say that although I loved the wanderer in many ways, handling the symmetric kite wasn't one of them. If we ever get a double-hander again, I think it will be one of those easy-to-sail asymmetric cruisers (Laser stratos, 49er etc.) Peter.
Viola IP: 83.67.105.75 May 14th, 2008 - 5:24 PM	Re: Flat Out Peter, what nonsense! A symetric spinnaker is very little bother - it just requires familiarity Ok, it takes longer to get familiar with but you can do more with it once it is flying, you are not stuck with that narrow downwind area - you can have from screaming reaches to surfing dead downwinds.
Julie IP: 81.152.114.135 May 14th, 2008 - 6:26 PM	Re: Flat Out Richard, If your helm is available you could join in the 2nd day of the Sailing with Spinnakers course this Saturday. Contact Stephen if you are interested. E-mail: juliegibbon@btopenworld.com
Richard IP: 80.254.146.4 May 14th, 2008 - 6:57 PM	Re: Flat Out Julie I wish I could but I should probably do some work and my better half would probably create a substantial crater if I suggest both days at the club this weekend. What ever happened to love, honour and obey???
Paul IP: 152.135.235.188 May 14th, 2008 - 9:12 PM	Re: Flat Out The two key essentials to a good gybe are: 1) Make sure the boat is moving at it's maximum speed, before initiating a gybe. 2) Ensure the boat is flat or has a small amount of windward heel. Peter is more than welcome to come & demonstrate gybing our 40sqm kite from the wire. We'll happily see if we can manage a Wanderer!
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 15th, 2008 - 8:18 AM	Re: Flat Out Those things just gybe themselves don't they Paul What Paul says about fast and flat are very true in stronger winds. Also... 3) Timing...throw the boom over BEFORE you leave the straight downwind position. It should be possible to sail on a dead run in strong winds and throw the boom from side to side without capsizing. Put some centreboard down in stronger winds to stop the boat screwing up when the boom lands on the new side. Pulling some kicker on makes the boom much easier to throw. Note the difference from the RYA technique: RYA: Centreboard up, kicker off, Gybe by changing course and waiting for the boom to decapitate you. DRY: Centreboard down, kicker on, Throw the boom when dead downwind. change course afterwards. This works well in single handers and asymmetrics, and I would strongly recommend that anyone scared of gybe-capsizes (as I was before the SN training day) gives it a go. I don't know what the Opreys do???
Neil IP: 92.233.237.49 May 15th, 2008 - 8:26 AM	Re: Flat Out Peter Do you sheet in the mainsail slightly as well to stop the boom ending up in the water after the gybe? Neil
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 15th, 2008 - 8:46 AM	Re: Flat Out Yes... the technique the supernova god showed us (which should work for all centre-mainsheet single handers) was to pick up the mainsheet at the stopper knot (that you put in to stop the boom hitting the shrouds), put the knot between your thumb and 1st finger then raise you hand up to the kicker - this sheets in about 1m. Still holding the knot tight, wrap your spare fingers around the kicker and fling! Lower your hand again to sheet back out, then just before the boom lands on the other side give the sheet a short pull to pop the battens and to decelerate the boom.
Peter IP: 86.149.39.161 May 15th, 2008 - 8:50 AM	Re: Flat Out Actually, it's not the kicker I fling, it's the mainsheet where it leaves the boom - I think Steve has a bit of rope hanging at this point soley for doing the fling - he calls it a gybing strop.
Tony IP: 81.137.253.207 May 15th, 2008 - 12:25 PM	Re: Flat Out My crew has one of those...every time I want to Gybe...he goes into a strop! E-mail: tonyblenkinsop@blueyonder.co.uk
Mike IP: 83.67.105.75 May 15th, 2008 - 2:45 PM	Re: Flat Out A well flown conventional spinnaker is a thing of beauty. It's well worth the effort taken to master it. That inevitably involves spending a certain amount of time trawling it underneath the boat, but persevere! As Viola says, we'd be glad to help, crew-swapping or whatever. E-mail: mhs@iqx.co.uk
Paul IP: 152.135.235.188 May 15th, 2008 - 5:03 PM	Re: Flat Out Flat or Windward Heel is key for all wind conditions. In very light winds you may want some slight leeward heel while running or reaching, so that sail shape is preserved & flow is engaged. But during the gybe you need the CoE of the sail to be perpendicular or to windward, so that the sail is neutral or drives the hull through the gybe. If you have any leeward heel when you gybe then the rudder will start to stall & act as a handbrake. The faster you move relative to the windspeed, the the easier & safer the gybe will be. Problem normally occur when the preparation for the gybe is poor & the boat starts to slow.
Mike C IP: 81.131.17.119 May 15th, 2008 - 7:54 PM	Re: Flat Out There should be a Flying Fifteen Video in the focsle with a few hints on sailing by Steve Goacher. You're welcome to borrow it and apply the bits that are useful to your boat/technique. E-mail: mike.collins46@btinternet.com